I watched Comic Book Men tonight. Now, given that I talk about women in comics a lot, this blog has a fair amount of friendly criticism. Let’s just say it’s not a topic that comes with a lot of celebrating. Plus, Before Watchmen was announced the other week and the Earth Two costumes were ugly, and the tone here lately has been a little down. So I’m not going to talk about Comic Book Men.
Instead, I’m going to talk about my comic book shop, the spectacular Strange Adventures in Halifax, NS. The people who work there are super nice. They’re not dicks at all. They’re friendly to each other, and to customers, and going in to get my comics is always a very pleasant experience. Oh, we argue from time to time… Dave thought I was absolutely crazy to get Ultimatum a while back, and it turns out he was right. But they’re always nice. Also, they’re funny, clever, cool people, and while polite they don’t laugh uproariously at every weak to average joke they hear.
They also employ ladies. A few, in fact. And there are ladies just around, like in the background of the shop, perusing and buying things. The female population of the shop consists of much more than just, say, a nervously laughing horror movie fan. There are all sorts of women doing all sorts of things. In fact, they’re having a ladies night at the end of the month!! If you’re in Halifax on February 29th, you should check it out!!
Never has anyone who worked at Strange Adventures talked to me about which superheroes they’d like to have sex with. We’ve talked about Archie’s polyamorous relationships and sex in comics generally, but in an interesting, non-creepy way. They aren’t creepy at all. They’re a nice, sort of weird but in ways that are awesome group of people who make customers feel welcome, ie. the exact sort of people you want to buy comics from.
Strange Adventures is AWESOME. It’s the coolest store in the world, and a paradigm for the best that a comics retailer can be. It’s diverse and inclusive and spending time there just makes you want to come back again. I LOVE my comic book shop. And that’s all I have to say about Comic Book Men.
Other than this: You make Mad Men, AMC… MAD MEN. What the hell?!
TIM HANLEY 
You are so full of hypocrisy I have no idea where to even start!
Or maybe it isn’t hypocrisy at all. Maybe you really are just that wrapped up in pro-female issues, you can’t see the forest for the trees.
Strange Adventures does a lot of great things for comics. The one REALLY REALLY BAD thing they do is their hypocrisy on gender equality. While they promote women to shop there and hire women on one hand, they go and hold special WOMEN ONLY events!
How is that promoting equality? It doesn’t. It continues to display in very loud ways, that there are differences in the sexes.
Should we even get into the human rights issue? Of having an event at a commercial establishment that promotes inequality? That provides one sex special deals, guests and shopping times?
Imagine the uproar if say Sears were to have a Men Only night, and special guests at the event, and then offered all the men a giveaway and special deals? The screaming would be heard on the moon!
Yet here you are raving up a store doing the exact same thing, and all because it “promotes women in comics”, totally overlooking the real issue to support your agenda.
I’m all for women in comics. I just despise male only or female only events and feel they violate the canadian ccharter of freedoms and rights, and in that regard I have contacted both the NS human rights commission and the Canadian Civil Liberties Association CCLA about this event. In order to attempt and stop it from happening.
Not because I don’t want more women in comics, but because I am vehemently opposed to the sexist methods to accomplish this goal!
For that alone, despite the many good things Strange ?Adventures does do, they get a MASSIVE FAIL as an acceptable commercial enterprise.
I’m assuming this comment is an elaborate joke, and if so it’s HILARIOUS. Well done!!
If not, wow. Here’s the thing… things like shitty shows such as Comic Book Men, comic books with ridiculous levels of T&A, and the industry’s complete apathy towards marketing to women make a lot of women feel uncomfortable in comic book shops. The dominant message from the comic book world to women is “THIS IS NOT FOR YOU”. Strange Adventures is a fantastically welcoming store, but there are still lots of women who are interested in comics but a little wigged out/overwhelmed by comic shops. People’s general idea of a male comic book store employee is awkward at best and rude, arrogant, and sexist at worst. No one is like that at Strange Adventures, but ladies won’t know that if they’ve never been there. By having a night that’s just for them, they can check out the shop and realize that it’s not at all weird or scary, and then maybe come back another time when it’s not Ladies Night.
Ladies Night isn’t sexist… it’s aiming to correct all of the many sexist messages that the comic book world sends out that keep women away from comic shops. It’s not an attempt to be exclusive, but rather an attempt to be inclusive by welcoming in women in a gradual way. I don’t think it “displays that there are differences in the sexes”. It acknowledges that men and women get VERY different messages from the comic book world, and tries to address this inequality, which I think is fantastic.
So yeah, you might want to chill out a little.
Dear sir,
Before promoting the use of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in your rebuttal argument against “Ladies’ Night” on the basis of gender equality, let me invoke this sub-statement of section 15 (regarding Equality Rights):
Equality Rights
EQUALITY BEFORE AND UNDER LAW AND EQUAL PROTECTION AND BENEFIT OF LAW / Affirmative action programs.
15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
What I am getting at here, is of course, the Affirmative Action clause of the Charter which allows for disadvantaged groups the opportunity for beneficial programs and events. An example of such events or programs would be the current hiring climate of the RCMP (which is inclined to hire more women), and certain university scholarship programs (which aims to provide benefits to those of typically disadvantaged ethnic backgrounds). If you wish to back your argument with the Charter, I suggest you know the Charter.
It is my sincere belief that one day, you will realize that women face inequalities and discrimination on a daily basis. While it may not be clear to you, these facts are often overlooked by those who are privileged enough to not have to bear the discriminatory thrall of society on a continuous motion.
I firmly believe that Ladies Night is not done on a discriminatory basis towards men, but instead, helps to promote comics to a group of people who may have been pressured by other societal factors to not pick one up in the first place. As a fan of comics, I should hope that you would encourage an event to create new comic book readers, and one that promotes business towards your local independent comics retailer.
Oh good. I hope you show this much passion when you see female characters dismissed and objectified in the comics you love. It would be odd if you didn’t.
I encourage women to read comics, and read those comics which dismiss and objectify women. It is important to critically analyze the literature which means to oppress and discriminate. The only way a group can fight against the discrimination they face is to bring the problems to public attention. In order to do that, one must be educated in the works that one wishes to argue against.
Ladies’ Night promotes the idea of a positive influence of women in comics, as well as promoting the wide array of comics already available; to women. Also, the night aims to give a voice to a community that is oppressed, both historically and currently. It also showcases the talent of local women artists, and encourages other women to create and use their talents in the community of Halifax, as well as cross culturally.
It’s not a joke. It’s serious.
You do not “fix” a discriminatory industry by putting on a discriminatory event.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You can spin it however you want, and justify it however you want, none of which denies the fact Strange Adventures is hosting an exclusive event that only one sex can attend. That they will receive things the other sex cannot.
My argument and complaint to the NS human rights and the CCLA would be the same if it were a male only event, and if it were hosted by any business.
Just because you are doing good, does not mean you are allowed to violate the rights of others. Holding exclusive events for one sex or another is about as bad as violating the rights of others as one can get.
Strange Adventures regularly has sales and special events… they do it ALL the time. Damn near everything offered at ladies night will be offered to everyone else at various times throughout the year. For 2 hours on Feburary 29th, there’s an event just for ladies… for 2 hours, women will receive things that men can receive at SO many other events before and after. No one’s rights are violated… men have the exact same rights and priveleges at tons of other events throughout the year. Are my rights violated bcause I don’t get to use the ladies washroom? No, because there’s a men’s washroom right across the hall. So men don’t get to go to ladies night… they can go to the next event. There’s no lack of sweet sales and signings.
Anyway, of all the things to complain about in terms of sexism and discrimination, this seems absolutely ridiculous to me. There are actual problems out there you could be spending your time on.
J: You are suffering from a very basic misunderstanding about discrimination, and how it feels to be discriminated against. It is a very common misunderstanding among white males.
You have to recognize that not all men are as enlightened as yourself. Our society is full of men that do their best to make women feel unsafe, and unequal, or just don’t give it any thought. Many of these men are comics fans, just talking to each other, unaware of how their attitudes make women around them feel unsafe, unequal, unwanted.
Gender Discrimination is not just about overt acts of exclusion, it’s about the gentler, more subtle ways that our culture tells women they are not equal or welcome. It is easy to stand up and speak out when discrimination is obvious. It is far more difficult to challenge assumptions, often made in polite tones, the perpetrator unaware of the damage they are doing.
Yes, Ladies Night excludes men. This is how we can make a space for women to feel welcome. This is how we set about changing a culture that excludes women in a million other ways.
“Yes, Ladies Night excludes men. This is how we can make a space for women to feel welcome. This is how we set about changing a culture that excludes women in a million other ways.”
Seems to me if you don’t have the people that are doing the opressing involved, they’ll have no idea to stop oppressing.
Seems to me instead of needng a Ladies Night you need an education night for these oppressors.
Seems to me that might be a ton more productive.
SA didn’t invent the idea of ‘Ladies Night’. It is a long standing tradition coming from the night club scene. Women get into bars free, half-price drinks, etc. The purpose of this is to attract more men to the bar with the promise of an abundance of drunk women.
(Not exactly a shining example of healthy gender relations, hmm? Where are all the protests about segregation at the Liquor Dome? Is J going to go in with a video camera and demand his half-price drinks?)
What Kate has done with Ladies’ Night at SA is to re-appropriate the idea and turn it into something that is female-positive, something that is welcoming to women, rather than something that puts a target on them.
I agree, that men need to be educated, but as I found, a feminist awareness is not a simple thing that can come about in a classroom environment. Culture is not as simple as that; we can’t just flick a switch and end sexism.
The ‘guys in comic shops’ that make girls uncomfortable are not ‘oppressors’ as such. They aren’t out to hurt anyone, and I guarantee they are unaware of the damage they may be doing. I’ve been that guy myself – a young guy who’s excited and feeling like he’s among friends and talking a bit freely and a bit loud. Maybe he doesn’t have a lot of experience in talking to women, and gets nervous. It’s pretty tough to explain to that guy that he’s making a mistake, and he should re-examine his attitudes. It’s a realization that people have to come to on their own.
In my opinion, the best way for men to learn is to be friends with women, and listen to them. If men think of women as mothers and sisters and aunts and daughters, then with that will come respect.
Until that happens on a wide scale, we need to find other ways to make women feel comfortable and welcome. Strange Adventures Ladies’ Night is just what we need to bring more confident women into comic shops, so they can speak for themselves.
“In my opinion, the best way for men to learn is to be friends with women, and listen to them. If men think of women as mothers and sisters and aunts and daughters, then with that will come respect.”
Which doesn’t happen when you have males go in one door, and women in another after the males have left. Before they can be friends, they need to actually meet. Strange concept I realize.
It is my understanding that Ladies Night was homaged from another comic store, let us give credit where credit is due.
But Mads, we’re addressing the current situation, which is to reach out to those women who are not coming in the door at all.
Once they come to Ladies Night, the hope is that they start to feel like the Comic Shop is no longer a ‘den of maleness’ – they start to feel like it’s a place with something for everyone.
“coming in the door at all”
That isn’t what happens though. 8 out of 10 at least have been to strange several times already. Half the attendees, while not regular in the comic world sense of weekly, would be considered regular customers at a business.
So you get a bunch of regular women getting a special exclusionary event, sale and party. When they can like the males everyone claim, just shop regularly and get lots of chances at sales and deals already. All this for a dozen or so women who have never stepped in a store before and never would unless there was a Ladies Night.
Doesn’t sound like a fair trade off in the so called balancing of the scales people like to say this event is for.
Dozen, even 2 or three dozen, for the barring a gender? no thanks.
Mads et al.,
Yeah, that *is* what happens.
I’m planning to go tonight. Despite all the “wow, yay, come, we have cookies!” stuff I keep seeing on Twitter, Facebook etc., I’m still kind of nervous. Because I am *not* a comics person, and not a regular. I’ve been into SA once to put up a poster and once to buy a very specific book that I knew would be there. The idea of wandering in and browsing comics has been, honestly, scary. I’m delighted there is a time when I can go and be expected to be a newbie despite the fact I’m quite possibly old enough to be your mom.
I work in a field that is >95% men. I’m not a shrinking violet, nor am I against mingling the genders. And yeah, maybe it’s dumb to feel nervous about something as simple as walking into a shop that wants to sell me stuff, but *that is how I have felt* and as a result, I haven’t been in.
I guess I’m one of your “dozen or so” women, and apparently you consider that two hours men can’t be in SA is too high a price to pay for giving me and others like me a welcoming invitation. Because if we “have never stepped in a store before”, we aren’t actually clientele that’s worth having anyway?
I get the impression from your comment (of course, I may be mistaken) that you think we non-comic-store-going women don’t come into comic stores because we’re not actually interested in comics, so there’s no point pandering to us. Know what? That’s missing the point entirely. I read webcomics. I read graphic novels I bought at Chapters or borrowed from a friend or the library. But I am not a regular at SA because I have never felt like I belonged there. Now, they’re inviting me in. They may yet make a regular out of me and I’ll be supporting a local business instead of ordering on Amazon.
I don’t know how many new regulars they’re going to get – but then, I don’t know how many they’d get from their usual sales and deals either. Probably fewer, since as you point out those mostly attract people who are already customers. I’m thankful to SA for making a welcoming space for me tonight – and I bet they’ll find it was a good business decision on their part as well, not just a socially laudable event.
Tim said:
“that men can receive at SO many other events before and after.”
As can women. Those events are not restricted to men only. They are all open up to both sexes.
So you are justifying discrimination based on the fact, well it’s only 2 hours and almost everything is available elsewhen?
Seriously? That’s your justification? That’s a really unbelievable justification for the year 2012 in Canada. We are supposed to be beyond coming up with any justifications of why it is okay or not okay to exclude anybody based on sex, age, religion etc.
As for this issue. Yea, let us let this one slide, no harm no foul, until the next business does it Then another, and another. Let’s stop it before it gets that far. Let’s stop it before it happens at all!
To think, this is all really for the personal financial advancement of a business. This isn’t a charity. This isn’t some event for the good of humanity. This is about a business attracting more people of a specific gender to its’ store in order to profit under the guise of selling things to expose women to comics.
Disgusting doesn’t even begin to coer it. While I support the idea of more women involved in comics, I don’t believe anyone should be left out to accomplish it. Discriminating to include is just such an amazingly bad concept.
I’m not justifying discrimination… I’m saying it’s NOT discrimination. And Ladies Night is a slippery slope? Good lord.
Strange Adventures is one of the most community-minded businesses in the city, and they LOVE comics. They’re good folks… the store is there because they love comics and getting people reading them. If they were in business just for profit, they’d be selling pretty much anything but comics… it’s not a lucrative industy.
This is not discrimination. This is not disgusting. It’s fun, and a lot of people are going to have a great time and get into comics. That’s awesome. I think you’re the only person upset about it, so have fun with that.
Whether it’s right or wrong it is specifically discrimination. That is something that is undeniable. It can be justified discrimination with a positive goal, but it is in fact discrimination. Please note: I am not making a moral judgement, but a semantic one.
“This is about a business attracting more of a specific gender to its store in order to profit under the guise of selling things to expose women to comics.” Yes. This is bad how? Those two things are the exact same thing. If you subtract the phrase “under the guise of,” then this sentence makes complete sense. There is something wrong with attracting women to comics?
“For discrimination to be found it must be determined if the burden or denial of benefit harms an individual’s human dignity (Law v. Canada). That is, the discrimination will marginalize, ignore, or devalue an individual’s sense of self-respect and self-worth.”
If you are saying that allowing women a two hour window to discover comics harms your dignity or devalues your self worth, well, you might want to think about reprioritizing your life.
“Strange Adventures is one of the most community-minded businesses in the city, and they LOVE comics. They’re good folks… the store is there because they love comics and getting people reading them.”
Nobody is disputing that.
All irrelevent though.
The ONLY issue is if a business should be allowed to have male only or female only invite sales, specials, deals and giveaways.
That’s the ONLY debatable point. Reasons for doing so hold no place or justification in a debate if something is discriminatory or not.
This isn’t fun. This isn’t a game. This is very serious. Authorities have been contacted. Perhaps it is too late to stop this event, only time will tell.
There are other available avenues to protest. Sometimes to win discriminatory cases and get the government and CCLA involved is to actually show evidence of discrimination. Maybe this will take that. Maybe males will need to show up with the media/witnesses and see if they are banned from entering. Once on film, hard to disprove.
I hope though, the authorities do their job, and that making a scene becomes unnecessary. Also hard to pull together in two weeks, so we shall see what is required and possible to stop this sale, and if not, the next one for sure.
Are you aware that senior citizens pay less than younger people to go to the movies?
Or that on certain nights in bars across Halifax, women pay less for drinks than men do?
Or that many stores offer discounts to members of the military that aren’t made available to civilians?
Or that at some restaurants, children get to eat for free?
It’s not discriminatory… it’s called running a damn business. If I asked for the senior’s rate at the theatre and made a scene, they’d ask me to leave and EVERYONE would agree with them. If I demanded the military discount, stores would boot me to the curb, most likely to applause. Are you tackling all of these injustices, or are you just irked about Ladies Night?
My guess is that the authorities won’t care, because this is ridiculous. And that if some dude tries to make a scene at ladies night, those gals will take care of him with ease. And that if anyone videotaped it, the entire planet minus you would be on the ladies’ side. So yeah, RIDICULOUS. Your time would be so better spent on ANYTHING else.
Yet in every one of your examples, entry was not denied based on age, sex or religion.
I refuse to even discuss the “well others do it, so it’s clearly okay”. As we all know, that’s the weakest argument for acceptance of something in existence.
No, but entry is limited. I’d go to a lot more movies if I got to pay the senior rate… I’m on a tight budget. Because I am cruelly discriminated against by movie theatres, I can’t go to as many movies. They are literally stealing joy from me!! And giving my joy to old people!! It’s outrageous!!
That’s not my argument. My argument is that certain people getting special deals and incentives is how businesses operate. No one thinks it’s discriminatory because it’s not. If they did, people would be up in arms about things like senior’s rates and military discounts and Ladies Nights, but they aren’t because everyone knows they’re not discriminatory. It’s not “well others do it, so it’s clearly okay” but rather “it’s clearly okay, so people do it without fear of other people freaking out about discrimination”.
If I may ask, what other discriminatory events have you filed complaints about? You seem keenly anti-discrimination, and I’m trying to get a sense of what else you find offensive.
Yet again, all your examples don’t deny someone the right to participlate as a ladies only night does.
While I refuse to get off topic as you are so desperately trying to get me to do to win your argument – I will say the big difference is that in your examples a male or a woman still have the right to choice if they want to participate or not , while in the ladies only event, males are denied the right to participate. Making things available ONLY to Women. Males are denied choice and access , thus are discriminated against.
The difference between you and I is, you like to come up with justifications of why something is okay or not. In this case, well it’s a business so it’s okay.
What if it wasn’t a business? We differ because I say there is never any justification. Every case is equal. Denying entry to a business or an event based on sex, is either acceptable in society or it is not. The business event or reason is irrelevent to maing that ethical decision.
So it’s okay to limit my right to participate, just not to deny it outright? It doesn’t seem all that different to me.
If my examples are flawed, what are some instances that are comparable to Ladies Night? You didn’t reply when I asked what other events you’ve filed complaints about, and I ask again not to pester you but because I think it’s relevant… what other events have you found similarly discriminatory?
No, I think the difference between you and I is that I don’t see discrimination where there is none.
Okay, what if it wasn’t a business… what could it be? What if I had a daughter and she was having a sleepover and I didn’t let any boys come? Does the event need to be conceivably open to the public to raise your ire? Again, I think some other examples would help the discussion.
“So it’s okay to limit my right to participate, just not to deny it outright? It doesn’t seem all that different to me.”
I never said that. I specifically said I was not touching that issue, not because I either support or don’t support that. Because it is not the issue.
The issue is simple in the case of Strange Adventures. Does or does not a business have the Right to deny entry based on age, sex or religion and to offer specials available only to that demographic.
Period.
While I used the word specials. I mean deals, giveaways, opportunities for limited product, access to special guests, etc.
It seems like a very related issue to me, but okay.
Businesses obviously have the right to offer specials available only to certain demographics. As I’ve mentioned and you’ve dismissed, military discounts and senior’s rates and “Kids Eat Free” are deals regularly offered by businesses, and no one takes issue with them. So yeah, it seems businesses are allowed to do that.
As for denying entry, this is an after hours event. The store is open to everyone during regular business hours. Certain individuals (ladies) have been invited to this event. There’s a massive difference between “Sorry, you don’t meet the criteria for this after hours event, please come back any other time” and “Go away, filthy person… your kind are never welcome here.” The latter will get you in trouble. The former, not so much.
You will, of course, disagree on the distinction.
Males will be denied entry and will miss out on special prices, giveaways, and guests, and damnit cupcakes.
My stance would be the same if only seniors were allowed in, or if only roman catholics.
It isn’t an after-hours thing, as during this time Strange Adventures will be performing it’s main function as a business, selling things. And selling things only to a specific demographic.
I believe I have the ethical position on this. I guess only the media, government, and public opinion after word gets out about the discrimination, will show that I am right and not in the minority.
So it’s off to more NS Human Rights, CCLA and now I’ll add the media on my contact list.
This is wrong, and I will do my best and what I can to stop it.
But I think it’s pretty clear that prices, giveaways, etc. to specific demographics aren’t discriminatory, right? Again, seniors rates, military discounts, this is common business practice. So, hypothetically, if they let men in BUT they couldn’t get the special prices, giveaways, or cupcakes, would that be okay? They could buy items at regular prices, but get none of the special stuff.
This isn’t going to happen, of course. I’m just curious. Because if that would be acceptable, then why is it a problem that for two hours men can’t come in, when it’s open to them regularly ALL week? I think denied entry and special deals are two different issues, and denied entry becomes irrevelevant when you can come ANY other time.
I think you’ll find that you’re definitely in the minority, and will likely get laughed off by any human rights groups or media sources you approach.
I appreciate that you’re concerned about discrimination, but don’t you think there are far more troublesome (and real) areas of discrimination you could be focusing your efforts on?
I’m probably going to be jumped on for this but whatever, take it with a grain of salt or decide I have this opinion because I’m a woman. My son and I regularly visit Strange Adventures, we’re there every other Saturday and he drags poor Jay around the store asking questions for over an hour every time. I’m going to Ladies Night and I’m getting a babysitter to do it because it’s just for girls. My 7 year old doesn’t seem to have a problem with that, he thinks it’s cool. All he asked was if I could try and bring him home a cupcake.
I understand what you’re saying, I appreciate the stance that you’re taking but is it really worth getting yourself this worked up over? This isn’t discrimination, it’s a business trying to get more people in the door by hosting a fun event that will get some people in the door that may not have normally come in because they have a preconceived notion that comic book stores are like the one in Big Bang Theory. This is not that much different than a bar offering no cover to women or cheaper drinks to women or all the other things that Tim mentioned previously.
And moreover, human rights groups are government bureaucracies that move very, very slowly. By the time they make a decision about whether or not Strange Adventures is discriminating against men for this AFTER HOURS event this Ladies Night will be all over, in fact it will probably take so long that there will be just as many women in comics worldwide as men. But hey, you do what you want with your time and energy
My bad, it’s not entirely after hours, you’re missing out on 60 minutes of comic window shopping and purchasing that you would have normally had.
Really, I want to see you try and get into a bar for free on Ladies’ Night (there are many in Halifax, so take your pick). Call up the authorities and the media and point out the discrimination as you fight for a spot in the line-up outside the Palace. If you are such a man of principles, please, show us the way. Fight for equality!
Dangit — senior’s discounts ARE discriminatory… to those with high cholesterol, an aversion to healthy food, and prone to heart attacks.
Sorry, but the only people being “discriminated” in your examples are those unwilling/unable to serve in the military; and those who cannot reach a certain age to be applicable for a senior’s discount.
Incidentally, military discounts are inclusive to civilians who work at DND, not just soldiers—regardless of gender.
But applying that logic, is it discriminatory that I get a medical benefits from my place of employment while others outside of our company do not?
~
All that said, I honestly don’t care if women get their own event. But the reasons why are dishonest and insincere. And can we lose the “Comic Book Guy” stereotypes, please? It’s a wee bit insulting.
I think it’s pretty clear that J hates women.
Wow.. hah… Well here’s my two cents as an outside opinion that’s only been reading all this conversation…
Tim makes a good point in that events like this will help increase comics’ exposure to women, and hopefully invite more women to take part freely in the comic world all year long. Also, there are many specials and deals offered all over the world to only select groups at certain times, and they are not considered discriminatory.
J makes a good point in that to allow entry to a person based on sex/religion/race/culture/ etc is wrong for a business, and in many case should be halted.
BUT – who is more right? Well, on these two points, both are equally right in my opinion. BUT, who is morally and ethically right? Again, both are. But when did the scales tip in favor of one side? When Tim mentioned “after-hours event.” That seals the deal right there.
This is not a business denying entry to a group of persons, this is an event venue open only to women. It is after business hours, and it is a private event open only to women. If it were held at 2pm on a Wednesday on new comic day, I can see an issue. But, this is a private party, so no issue at all.
I would say J is a professional s**t-disturber, and thrives on negativity. If he did not, then he would have contacted Cal and the SA team about his concerns, and helped them put together a men-only event during after hours at some future point. Since this was not his first impulse, and he instead went straight to the tattle-tale route, it is obvious he does not wish to resolve this peacefully, but rather create drama. Annoying 5-year-olds tell on others to the teacher/mom without talking out their problems with the other person first.
Also, the reason he is not touching other factors that he deems irrelevant to this debate is actually a good one. He sees holes in his argument, and rather than deal with them, he goes with “No comment” as any good politician or protester would. It doesn’t make the points and arguments brought against him any less valid, it just means he can’t make it worst by answering to it in the wrong way.
What about the 24 hour a day, 7 days a week discrimination of rooms for only men or women…. Different equipment for each, some specifically not available to the other. A heavily enforced regulation where you will be removed from the establishment for breaking. Yup, bathrooms are pretty discriminatory.
Discrimination isn’t about providing differing service or venues in a lot of cases. Men and women have many fundament differences and catering to them isn’t discrimination in a lot of cases. Have you filed reports about no urinals in the women’s washroom? Or the lack of bra’s in the men’s section of Wallmart and other clothing venues? I hope so, as it’s both the same ideal you’re proposing and, more importantly, will give the folks who work there a great laugh.
Bake your own cupcakes, or are you still waiting for a woman to do it for you?
Oh FFS!!! Other businesses do this all the time – Ladies night discounts happen AT THE DAMN MALL!! Places like Mark’s Work Wearhouse and Bluenotes have shopping parties exclusively for women and no one says anything. Perhaps J is only upset by this because these other stores/bars etc. are not the places he chooses to go. Either way, he needs to get his head out of his ass and realize that women put up with one hell of a lot of crap, in most aspects of daily life, just because we have vaginas. If he wants to cry over 2 hours of us having fun without being gawked at while we buy comics, so be it. (Not referring to the staff here – SA staff are beyond amazing, but some of the customers make things a little weird and awkward at times).
I can’t believe the comments… Strange Adventures not only has the BEST treasures in all of the city but is also has the best staff. I love ladies night, Geek is chic and with the new 52 relaunch stuff more people are curious. I’m new into comics and it can be really intimidating to get into. Ladies night if perfect to come in, chat with people who are just like you and (hopefully) won’t judge you on anything. Fuck the haters, Strange4Life.
You’d be hard pressed to find a boy/man who feels like there’s nothing in comics culture for them at least at some point in their lives. While it’s improved considerably in recent years, one can’t quite say the same for girls/women yet. There is still a large portion of the female populous (including some that frequent comic shops regularly) who still feel it’s a boys club (and shows like Comic Book Men and comics featuring poorly represented female characters go a long way to reinforce such antiquated ideas).
Because of this and because Strange Adventures wants everyone involved, events like Ladies’ Night is a necessary educational tool. Some of these hold-outs who think of comics as just the muscle bound, male power fantasies full of fan service and lack luster writing may be more willing to give the industry a chance if they don’t think they’ll be surrounded by the likes of Kevin Smith’s goon squad (accurate assessment or not) while they’re introduced to the culture.
We just have to ask any guys out there to share their stories of discomfort or outright discrimination while visiting a comic shop, and then ask the gals the same and you’ll see the difference and necessity for Ladies’ Night. I suspect this is something “J” either takes for granted. That, or he just doesn’t care about that fact as much as he cares about not getting the cupcake he’s entitled to.
As a true comic fan, I support any event that brings more people to the table. I sincerely doubt if “J” or the dwindling few who share his point of view will now stop reading comics because he wasn’t allowed into a private party that he wasn’t invited to. Whereas a lot of potential female readers (and consequently potential female creators) could be lost or never engaged without events that make them feel welcome/interested.
Instead of complaining about not being a part of a two hour event designed to bring more people into our beloved medium, maybe “J” should think about how he as a fan of comics will only benefit from bringing more people to the medium. You clearly have drive and passion regarding comics “J”. Try channeling it into something more constructive and less destructive. You’ll look like a hero instead of an entitled whiner.
Finally, I just want to address the idea that every other day of the year is “Men’s Night”. This is also an unfair assessment of Strange Adventures’ attitude towards its customer base. Strange makes great efforts to make their stores approachable to women all year long and I think Ladies’ Night is mainly for those that just haven’t caught on to this yet.
Well put Comic Fan!
This is stupid. All of this is stupid. If J understood the comic book industry and the history it’s been built on and the stigmas that many of us have been trying to fight back for years (thanks for setting us back a decade Comic Book Men) then would understand the value and significance of a ladies night at Strange Adventures. What a shit head.
Just to clarify, when I say all of this is stupid, I’m referring to the angry nonsense coming from fella there, not all of the comments from other readers or the article itself.
Just thought to clarify in case anyone took that the wrong way.
J – to be fair, have you read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Your accusations come across as unfounded without anything to back them up. Personally, I disagree with your argument and question your true motivation behind it – are you an activist? Do you have a background in championing human rights? If so, than you must know more about what you are talking about than you are letting on. Threatening to make this an issue with the Human Rights Commission does not make you an expert in human rights – that said, perhaps you are; however, it’s not very clear from your posts what “expertise” you are speaking from. Strange Adventures is a private business and they are offering up a special event during non-business hours in order to grow their clientele. There is nothing illegal about it. “Exclusive” would be a more appropriate term as opposed to “discriminatory”. That’s business. Again, to be fair, I am an expert in nothing – this is my opinion. So far, all we have heard is your “opinion”. You are welcome to provide more information to educate the rest of us. Otherwise, you come across as someone who just likes to complain about things.
I’m curious whether J has gone after Goodlife Fitness for their women only gyms. Clearly that should be higher up on his priority list than Strange Adventures! I mean come on, WOMEN HAVE A GYM ALL TO THEMSELVES! THEY DON’T LET MEN IN! GOOD LORD CALL THE AUTHORITIES!
Ugh. Shut up, J.
I was actually going to ask this question. Thank you for beating me to it 😀
I think that j makes an interesting argument & that the boys should be left a tray of cup cakes out side the front door of strange adventures on ladies nite! that way every one is happy! lol! X)
Man I wish I lived closer to Halifax than I do. I would LOVE to go to an event like this! I fell out of comics years ago, partially due to availability, and partially because everything that was available was geared towards men and because I was made to feel “weird” for wanting to read them. It hasn’t really changed with age, and my involvement in table top RPGs hasn’t improved matters.
I think ladies night is a fantastic idea! It’s a night where I can actually shine, and be taken seriously as a customer. Do you know how frustrating it is to go into a gaming store or a comic store and be treated simply as a tag-along? To have the group I’ve been playing D&D with, for months, out of the blue one night turn to my fiance and give him kudos for building an awesome character for me (which I actually built, they just assumed I wasn’t capable)? It would be nice to spend an evening where I don’t have to put up with that foolishness.
SA, my hat is off to you! And I promise I’m going to make the effort to be closer to the city, now that I know about Ladies Night, so that I can actually attend next year! It will be so refreshing to spend an evening in a prejudice-free zone and be reintroduced to my first nerdy love. And to leave my fiance at home. 😛
I got hit with a very very similar line of argument recently when announcing a ladies only event and it hurts my brain.
First, I would note that “J” has not replied since the rest of the world started chiming in on this issue – so the “shit disturber/ not really as knowledgeable about human rights as he thinks” moniker seems to hold true…
As someone who regularly has to deal with the issue of human rights and human rights violations professionally I find this whole argument ridiculous. First of all, human rights abuse occurs when a person’s basic human rights are abused, ignored or denied. Access to a private establishment – at any time – is simply NOT a basic human right. Or any kind of right for that matter. It is fully within the purview of Strange Adventures to hold any kind of event, for anyone, at any time should they choose.
The accusation of discrimination is bogus as well: Discrimination is prejudicial treatment of an individual based upon their membership in a specific group, or category. So, “J” and other men are being discriminated against because they are male. This is simply not true – as they have access to the store anytime they like during regular business hours and can participate in store activities. This could be called “reverse discrimination” as Ladies Night is open only to women and shows them favoritism… This is where the argument gets ridiculous as it is coming from a man, a member of a group that has consistently enjoyed privileges that women have not. This is an issue of privilege and privilege always rest with the majority – in this case, men. What is amusing is that those with privilege are so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as discrimination.
Of course, all of this is moot as Strange Adventures can do whatever they want in this regard as noted above. It is sad though, that someone who has likely enjoyed privilege, access and social acceptance based on his gender would create such a foolish argument and cause issue with an event designed to be more inclusive to a group that has not enjoyed the same privileges he has.
So, who’s being discriminatory again?
My girlfriend redirected me here to read this and just… Wow. What a mess…
I’m a huge feminist and a big proponent for the comic industry to be more accessible to girls and women and to be frank the ‘Ladies Night’ at Strange Adventures is definitively a great step in the right direction. I see it as very similar to a ‘Take Back The Night’ march, where women walk the streets of a city in large groups without any men in order to show neighborhoods and areas that just because they are women they are unafraid. That they do not expect to be treated differently then men and that any place a man can walk freely without fear of assault women can too.
When I walk into a comic shop I don’t expect to be made the sexual fantasy of the other patrons and the workers there because popular culture and personal experience have taught me that this will not be the case. Women on the other hand are presented with comics and the hobbies as they are, filled with impossible bodies, sexually charged costumes, pop culture icons who seem unable to relate to real women (Big Bang Theory’s entire cast anyone?) and that’s just from Canadian/American fans. I don’t blame a single woman who walks into an average comic shop and leaves due to the atmosphere. When I worked at Gamezilla I asked several men to leave in my time because they were making disparaging comments to female customers (some men as old as mid-thirties making comments to early high school age girls).
The divide in our hobby is terrifying and if we ever want to remedy it then open events which pander to women are not only acceptable but smart and timely business.
We nerdy, geeky and hobby types like to think ourselves so much more then the people who mock our shared interests. We see ourselves as more highly evolved people. We read about events meant to evoke wonder and hope about a better world, or to try and find hope in dystopian futures. We should be trying to make our real world better by following the examples of the heroes we super-hero fans follow for everyone. Which include women.
The ladies’ night events at Strange Adventures are really cool!
The girls have a good time and their guys head to the pub across the street. Everybody who has participated before has had a nice time.
Cuz’ girls and boys are different. We all know this.
We think differently, socialize differently, and we sort through comics differently.
And I love that about our species! Girls are awesome. Guys are awesome. And while it’s a sign of a healthy society that we learn to live together in a comfortable way, not to put either gender into disadvantage over the other, it’s also fun and healthy now and again to just chill out in our separate club houses.
At the risk of over-philosophizing. . , it’s a sign of wisdom that we recognize that some experiences can only be had one gender at a time, and it’s a sign of respect to back off and make room for that, -in both directions.
Balance is good, and the devil is in the details. Who is getting hurt or repressed here? Nobody.
Obsessing over niggling issues of fairness which, really in this case, amount to whose bowl of ice cream has the bigger scoop, is just silly. There are genuine problems in the world better deserving of our collective attention.
It’s really great to see all of these comments in support of Ladies Night and Strange Adventures… it’s going to be a fantastic event, and it’s encouraging to see so many people are behind it!! Thanks to all of you for coming by and supporting my favourite shop!!
And J, if you’re still reading, you mentioned “public opinion” in your last comment. This post is getting a lot of attention, and the vast majority of the public opining here don’t think the event is at all discriminatory. I don’t think opposing this event is going to get you anywhere. I hope you’ll channel your anti-discrimination ire towards more legitimate, deserving causes.
Of course I am still reading. Unfortunately I am also on my 12 hour shift schedule for a couple of days so I don’t have time to respond to every post, for now.
I hardly though consider a rallying of the troops, and a commenting from many directly involved in an event, as public opinion.
There’s been many good points on fairness posted as well here which you overlook on your attempt to put me in my place.
I’m also getting a good laugh out of how I am clearly a male. A female couldn’t possibly be opposed to women only events and support equality in everything.
Strange Adventures has done great things to involve women in comics. They should be commended for that. They should however not get a free pass because of that, when they turn around and do events that discriminate based on gender, or age or religion or nationality. In many ways, you’d expect them because of their forward thinking on involving women, that they’d understand this.
Yeah, there’s a lot of comments… I’m going to let everyone discuss amongst themselves, I think, since my position is pretty clear. But you started it all, so I’ll reply to you.
This “rallying of the troops” consists of a lot of Strange Adventures’ male customers, ie. those being discriminated against. And they really don’t seem to care. Rather, they’re quite supportive of the event.
“Good” is a relative term 🙂 There’s been lots of good posts in favour of Ladies Night too, but since you’re keen on complaining to human rights groups, I think Kelly Smith pointing out that the legal definition of discrimination is about harming an individual’s human dignity is particularly apt. When a man can come back and shop tomorrow (and every other day of the year), one’s dignity is hardly harmed.
Are you a male or female? I’ve been wondering that myself. You’re rather vague about everything, from gender to other discriminatory events you’ve opposed. Very on-topic, I suppose, but it’s hard to contextualize your comments. Which is sort of amusing, since I think it’s context that obviously shows this event isn’t even in the ballpark of discrimination, legally or morally.
Anyway, there’s a world of difference between a bi-annual event and regular refusal of service, and it’s not a slippery slope of some sort. It’s just not discrimination.
I’d just like to point out that bars keep the underage out after a certain time at night… J is a moron and a jackass. 😦
People will always find something to bitch about. Ladies Night is just such an occasion.
The fact that this is bothering some people just goes to show the lack of maturity regarding such things. If it bothers you, than have an event of your own! Maybe a “Studs Only” Night.
C’mon. Get over it.
Kayne,
Take Back the Night is an excellent example. Although in Canada it still is mostly as started as a female only march. However in the US many places have found the practice discriminatory and no longer allow only women to march. The national organization in the US for the march, for the most part no longer is in favour of women only marches.
Discrimination and rights, are very much like pregnancy. There is no such thing as ‘a little bit’.
What if it wasn’t 2 hours a few times a year but 2 hours every night of the year?
What if since comics are not just traditionally male, but white male, we have an African American or Japanese only event?
What if religious comics are underserved, so we will have a roman catholic event?
what if a record store that specialized in rap music said, not enough Caucasians, let’s have a Caucasian only event?
A restaurant wants to show they can serve Jewish people properly, so we will have an event for only them? Then once you carry kosher foods, you have an introductory to kosher event, no Jewish people allowed?
You can’t draw a line in the sand and say, well it is for a good cause, or it is only done this much so it is okay.
One time,one hundred times, one million times, makes little difference.
I applaud the goals of the event, it Is the implementation that is the issue and I agree with J on that point.
As Canadians we have grown and strived to be an inclusioniat country and society. Doing that with exclusionary events comes off as a bit disturbing. While maybe it would pass the within the law test, hosting events aimed at a particular group and excluding others, doesn’t pass the smell test.
At least for this Canadian.
I think this is well said. The idea of an event where people are excluded to increase inclusiveness isn’t very sensical, and the whole thing just isn’t egalitarian. Sure, most people think its a great idea, and maybe the slope isn’t that slippery, but it’s wrong to say ‘you can’t come because of who you are’ even if it’s only or two hours. and for the record, giving someone a discount for being elderly isn’t the same as barring someone for their gender.
” For discrimination to be found it must be determined if the burden or denial of benefit harms an individual’s human dignity (Law v. Canada). That is, the discrimination will marginalize, ignore, or devalue an individual’s sense of self-respect and self-worth.”
I honestly don’t think that a ladies night at Strange does this.
Agreed.
Exclusivity is not the same as discrimination. Ladies Night does not take anything away from men. Men can’t join a ladies’ soccer team, and if the ladies’ soccer team has a party, I would not get upset if I was not invited.
Dude, this is not whatever you think it is. It’s an awesome coming together of like minded people with similar interests meant to appeal to an ever growing demographic of comic book fans who have traditionally been either ignored or misrepresented in their place in an all-are-welcome world of imagination and wonder.
This is a subtle, creative and entertaining means of adding a slight balance to the scales and bring this wonderful world of creative genius to some people who might have otherwise given it a miss.
Now stop it, you’re acting weird. Go protest Black history month or Holocaust memorial day or something else that makes you look like a complete nutter.
J went off the deep end with his “I’ve notified the authorities” schtick, but I get the sentiment. As a kid interested in computer science I often would see a cool CS event, on a calendar at the gaming center or in the comic book shop, only to read that it was a Women in Computer Science event and hence girls only. It’s good that people were putting effort and money into promoting girls in computer science, and I support that goal. Still, it felt exclusionary. I would never suggest we should stop these events, more girls in CS and comics can only make the culture better. What might be good though is to take a page from Parks & Recreation’s Pawnee Goddesses: “one of the best parts of this episode was that the boys weren’t afraid to join a group of Goddesses if it meant they could eat candy and hug puppies and hang out with their new friends.” http://community.feministing.com/2011/10/21/parks-and-recreation-thank-you-for-the-pawnee-goddesses/
Let’s not hate on great girls only events because we feel excluded. Instead let’s make more awesome events for everybody, a girl promoting event can include boys too. Less hate and more being awesome people.
To clarify: I’m not saying no girl only events. Events can be girl only, particularly to build girl solidarity in a culture that often seems hostile to them, but that is just one aspect of building a culture of fairness between the sexes.
Blake, calm down. It’s because of guys like you that the demand for nights like this exist. Your harassment of various women in a desperate attempt to gain their attention (in many cases after they have made it clear that they were not interested in you) creates an environment where women don’t feel welcome and in many cases unsafe. And hiding behind this whole ‘gender equality’ silliness only highlights how pathetic your attempts really are.
Nobody’s on your side on this and you’re becoming more of a laughing stock as time goes on.
Signed . . .
Ah, what the heck. Hiding my identity behind a single could be fun as well.
‘H’
This is sad.
And it’s misguided opinions like these, poorly conceived reimaginings of fave characters like Starfire and Catwoman (just to name a few) an the total piece of excrement that is this “Comic Book Men”.
Hell, maybe J is in fact Kevin Smith!
Or wait…I got it…he’s Jay (duh!) Now, instead of Bob, if only he’d be the silent one.
Strange Adventures goes a long way to make everyone feel welcome. The wonderful staff – notably Kate and Jenny – are knowledgeable, funny, and a pleasure to deal with.
Good luck with ladies night SA, and here’s to many more!
White males are unaccustomed to the feeling of a door closed in their face, and sometimes don’t handle it gracefully. Come on, J. You’re crying like a baby about the smallest taste of something that women have to deal with every day, in ways you can’t imagine. Man up; you’re embarrassing your gender.
There’s a very real difference between sexism vs men and sexism vs. women, and you just have to look at the statistics for sexual assault to see it. No matter how much you as a man may be discriminated against, I seriously doubt you will ever worry about being sexually assaulted by women.
Hahaha you dumb dummies.
“Bike lanes have to accomodate cars too, because they’re discriminatory against people not on bikes. Also we should get rid of handicapped parking spaces because it’s discriminatory to people with working legs.”
That’s how you crazy people sound, like crazy people.
The reason why a Ladies’ Night exists (and I can’t believe I have to explain this to humans with working brains in 2012) is that there is a long history of women being victimized by men. It’s as long as history! It hasn’t ended! If you have four female friends (probably a long shot given how hateful you come off on the internet) statistically one of them has been sexually assaulted!
A result of society’s awful treatment of women is that some women don’t feel safe around men. I wish I didn’t have to spell it out for you morons, but some of these women who don’t feel safe around men maybe like comics and would like to purchase them. Ladies’ Night exists so that these woman can go out to a comic shop and feel like they aren’t going to get hit on, or creepily stared at, or groped or any of the things that men do to woman all the time becauise they feel like they can control them.
It’s ironic that people who purport to be fans of superheroes who dedicate themselves to protecting the weak and upholding justice are so selfish that they would knowingly make others feel uncomfortable just so they can…what….eat cupcakes?
Still, it’s typical of the cesspool mindset of most comic fans. These are, after all, the same people who would rather a board of directors at Time Warner or Disney make money off of their favorite characters than the artists who created them.
I need to chill out man, I sound way too grumpy.
It was a big eye opener for me when my wife started telling me about how men would shout obscenity at her from their cars while driving past her on the street. This never happened when we were out together. The men that carry on the culture of oppression against women are cowards, and save it for the times they think they can get away with it.
So congratulations on your personal belief that there are no differences between men and women. You have unlocked the ‘acting like a human being’ achievement. Time to try for level 2.
No matter how enlightened you may think you are, you are not all men. You are not bearing witness to the thousands of small humiliations that women have to endure out of your sight and hearing. You aspire to a fully equal society, as do I, but we are not there yet; not even close. That’s why we have to go a bit further for women, do whatever it takes to end sexism.
When I see men talking about women disrespectfully, I make a point of embarrassing them about it. I make sure I let them know I don’t feel that way, and I do what I can to remind them that the women they are oggling are human beings. And when I see women holding an event like ‘Ladies’ Night’ I applaud it, and do what I can to encourage it, and try and defend it from over-caffeinated blowhards like J and others that seem to be supporting his misguided notions of ‘equality’.
Crackwalker,
So every male needs to be put in there place and endure the sins of their fathers?
LOL. That philosophy gave us centuries of acceptable slavery.
Sorry, to say but no, just because a gender or whatever has been discrimatory in the past, does not mean it should be acceptable to take discriminatory actions to so called even the battlefield.
The fact That people even think in those terms, shows we aren’t that far advanced on equality issues, and not that far removed from the days of black only washrooms.
Equality isn’t us vs them, or even us and them. It is we. All actions should be done with we, not penalizing one over another because of past practices.
People here consider that such a trifle issue on a global scale and edforts are better spent elsewhere- but really equality is the key issue. If you don’t get that right, then you don’t get anything right
Or corrected.
You don’t achieve equal rights by denying some theirs. I’m all for whatever rights anyone wants, but I’ll find other ways to give them those rights than abuse others to accomplish it. That is wrong.
Mads. Dude.
I’m not talking about the sins of your father. I’m talking about the sins of the guy standing next to you right now. Right now, women are murdered by men at a highly disproportionate rate. Right now, women are sexually assaulted. Right now, women don’t feel safe around men.
Take your head out of the sand. No matter how much of a nice guy you are, you have a responsibility for the culture you participate in. As a man, you can speak out against sexism in a way that women just can’t.
You are not personally responsible for all men, but you are personally responsible for how you respond to sexism, when the opportunity arises. You can do what you can to make women feel safer, or you can whine like a baby about not being invited to Ladies’ Night.
Well I am not a dude.
Maggie is thy name. Or mads.
I have taken your so called stand against sexism and deny this event that favours one gender over another. As a woman, I need to feel safe in society, not in some controlled environment, which isn’t really being safe on the larger picture. I deny having special rules to make me feel safe, having so does not make me equal.
I am only equal, when I can stand with anyone and feel safe. I am not equal when I tell someone they need to step aside so I can be safe.
I’m not saying that Ladies’ Night is the only time that a woman would feel safe in a comic shop, and if you as a woman, don’t feel it’s necessary, that’s your prerogative.
I know from talking to many of my female friends, that they are not comfortable in a comic shop, the stated reason is that it doesn’t feel like a female-friendly environment. An event like Ladies’ Night is designed to appeal to those women that might like to explore the comics world a bit, but feel intimidated by a perceived testosterone-heavy culture.
Could you elaborate on how embarrassing men in societal positions of power by asking them to behave like decent, moral human beings is responsible for the slave trade? Martin Luther King Jr is gonna be way bummed out to hear that he’s partially responsible for slavery. I’d always assumed it was a surplus of cheap and easily accessable slaves along the African coast coupled with advances in technology and navigation that allowed slavery to flourish, at least in North America, but please, explain how feminist theory is the real culprit.
You actually DO combat discrimination by denying some people rights. When you deny a husband the right to treat their wives like property, you’re combating discrimination. When you deny a man on the street the right to tell a girl how hot their ass looks, you’re combating discrimination. When you deny a crazy person the right to say the holocaust didn’t happen and the jews control the world, you’re combating discrimination.
I don’t even think crackwalker was talking about discrimination in the past, but discrimination and real people’s feelings in the here and now, and how to combat it. Advocating for woman’s rights isn’t about punishing men for the past, it’s about trying to fix social issues RIGHT NOW, today.
Woman are saying ‘we don’t feel comfortable in specific social situations when men are around because of a long history of being victimized by them’, and instead of saying ‘okay, I can understand where you’re coming from’ you are saying ‘no! tough! me me me’ and acting like you’re the real victim and you sound like a huge selfish baby.
How, exactly, are men being victimized here? What are they missing out on? Assuming that they are actually being discriminated against, is this a greater injury to these men than would be done to a woman who wanted to shop for comics but doesn’y because they are used to being ogled or harrassed.
Since, A) they can shop there AT ANY OTHER TIME, B) strange adventures actually has sales going on basically all the time and C) you can buy cupcakes easily at the supermarket, the bakery, and even at the dessert store down the street on barrington, I don’t really see how this ‘discrimination’ is hurting anybody.
You went there?
There being:
“You actually DO combat discrimination by denying some people rights. When you deny a husband the right to treat their wives like property, you’re combating discrimination. When you deny a man on the street the right to tell a girl how hot their ass looks, you’re combating discrimination”
I don’t know how to even begin to respond to that. Those examples aren’t rights.
Wait, yes I know how to respond! Let is run with your whacked out example. Men hit women, so for women to feel safe we should chop off their arms. They ogle, so let’s poke out there eyes. They call them hot or nice ass, so let’s cutonic male tongues. All in the name of creating a safe environment for women! No harm no foul. Let’s just do whatever is necessary to accomplish the goal. For the less squeamish we will tie their hands, gag them and blindfold them.
After all, gotta make us women safe! I’m a feminist. Some friends call me radical even. I’m not that radical though.
None of those actions actually fix the issues. It might stop the actions but in no way does it fix the issue.
Ladies Night at Strange Adventures might not be on such an outrageous level of the example, and really minor in comparison, but the principle and key concept/point I am making is still valid. The thing about equality is that it is supposed to be scalable. What applies for one, must apply for all, and what applies for all must also apply to one.
You don’t fight discrimation by discriminating against. You can stop bad actions and wrong actions, but you can’t deny rights, or you are no better than the original discriminator,
We can fix any level of discrimination should we use your methods. Fortunately in society we didn’t take that approach to fight diacrimination, we took the equality route. Just some people missed that point so,ethereal along the way. It seems Strange Adventures who is normally superb in this regard, missed the mark on this one with Ladies Night,
“For discrimination to be found it must be determined if the burden or denial of benefit harms an individual’s human dignity (Law v. Canada). That is, the discrimination will marginalize, ignore, or devalue an individual’s sense of self-respect and self-worth.”
Again, a ladies night is non-discriminatory. And I personally feel that this a slap in the face to all those who suffer from ligitamate discrimination. Discrimination is a serious thing and many people struggle against it and comparing it to a special event for women so they can enjoy comics is ridicious.
You do know that in Canada men used to be legally able to rape their own wives, right? Like, until 1983?
That women used to be considered a man’s property? When women get married they still change their last name, to show the transference of property from the father to the husband, even if the custom’s history is forgotten, the legacy lives on.
These things have changed because women (and their male allies) fought against men who declared that as the head of the households they had the ‘right’ to do these things. The law actually had to be changed to point out that a man did not have the right to have sex with his wife whenever he felt like it.
Also, why did you cut out my example about holocaust deniers? They have a right to free speech, but as a society we’ve decided that there actually is a limit to those rights. While they’re free to believe hateful lies they aren’t free to spread them in a public forum. I wish you’d addressed the other parts of my post instead of focusing on abstract concepts like rights.
I admire your commitment to equality, but you seem to be starting from the perspective that right now we’re all equal and that’s just not true. Men, white men mostly, have a lot of advantages and built-in social power that largely goes unchallenged. Our culture caters to them in nearly every way. Having a special night celebrating women and exclusively for them isn’t discriminating against men, it’s a small attempt to level the playing field.
People argue that there shouldn’t be a ‘Black History Month’ or a ‘Black Entertainment Television’ channel because white people don’t have those things. “If there was a white entertainment channel it would be called racist,” they claim, probably correctly. What they ignore is that EVERY MONTH is white history month, and EVERY CHANNEL is white entertainment channel, because that group has a death grip on the culture producing channels in our society.
It’s not that LADIES NIGHT is the problem. It’s that every other day pretty much everywhere in the world is GUYS’ NIGHT, especially at comic shops. I’m glad you don’t need a special night to enjoy going to the comic book store and it makes me really happy, actually. But surely you can be considerate to some of your sisters who DON’T feel comfortable, have said so, and would like an opportunity to shop surrounded by a supportive and loving environment. It’s not that hard to hear that some people are hurt and act accordingly.
(In the same way, some men are saying they’re hurt by being excluded from this ladies’ night, but for some weird reason they can’t actually come up with any reasons why, apart from a vague sense of equality they can’t seem to fully articulate.)
“I admire your commitment to equality, but you seem to be starting from the perspective that right now we’re all equal and that’s just not true. Men, white men mostly, have a lot of advantages and built-in social power that largely goes unchallenged. Our culture caters to them in nearly every way. Having a special night celebrating women and exclusively for them isn’t discriminating against men, it’s a small attempt to level the playing field.”
I said the opposite in fact.
I accept there is discrimination, I accept your fact it’s white male power, I just won’t level the playing field by doing what was done to us women, leveling the playing field is compromising, making things equal by lowering something to meet the other. That’s not acceptable. The goal should be to raise that bar for ALL. You do that by inclusion, not exclusion which really is continuing to have an us and them.
I will be an equal in society. I’ll hold my head high I did it through fairness, That I am better than those white males you speak of, and while they denied me, I did it by including them.
Not playing by their rules, but by the right, fair and equal rules. As it should be done.
Mads: You are comparing the hosting of a ladies-only event to gouging out men’s eyes and chopping their arms off!
This is not the only example of men and women doing things separately. Take a deep breath and think about this for a second.
Having Ladies’ Night is not some sort of admission that women are weak and need protection. It is a response to a wider issue, one that is bigger than any one person’s attitude. Regardless of how empowered any individual may be, there is a sexist culture, right now, that is active in women’s lives. The strongest, most independent woman in the world, still suffers from sexism. Men have been running the show for a long long time.
What will change this culture is for men to back off and for women to step forward.
Education and correcting wrong behaviour is the ONLY way to change culture, which is only done in a dynamic inclusive eating.
Stupid auto word! Eating is setting!
Yes – an inclusive, dynamic setting is required.
It is the hope that inviting women into the shop and helping them discover another side to the comics world will support this goal. Right now, many women avoid comics, and are not included in the comics scene. For comics culture to change, more women need to get involved, not just because there are men in their lives that like comics, but because there are interested for themselves.
A lot of women are missing out on something they could really enjoy, and by extension, a lot of men are missing out on what these women would bring to the discussion. The culture of comics is not going to change without women participating in it. Extending a friendly invitation to an event specially set aside for women is a great way to do that, and opposing it is misguided.
Women are under-represented both in business and government. When we have a reasonable percentage of female MPs, when we have pay equity for men and women, then maybe we can relax a bit, and claim to have achieved equality… maybe. To rant and rail about the unfairness of Ladies’ Night when the scales are so unbalanced is absurd.
And to address another of J’s so-called ‘points’: I think a comparable Men’s-Only event would be just as acceptable. Take some sort of activity that is traditionally associated with women, like sewing. Many men do not feel comfortable in fabric stores. A stereotype, I know right?
If a fabric shop held a Gentleman’s Night and invited men to try things out, no one would blink an eye. I think most women customers of said fabric store would applaud the effort, and see an opportunity to get their husbands, fathers, brothers and uncles to appreciate something they are interested in.
I’d be just as opposed.
That makes no sense. You are opposed to something that harms no one, simply on principle. You are expecting others to conform to your own views without any logical basis. It is an unreasonable position.
Unless there is demonstrable harm, there’s no reason to forbid people from doing whatever they want.
It seems there are an awful lot of men talking about this, who seems to know a lot about comic books. As a gal who knows very little about comics, I thought I could throw my thoughts out for consideration. I’ve been into strange adventures only once, and although I was highly intrigued, I haven’t gone back yet. There are two reasons for this, one- due to my lack of knowledge I had no idea where to start (intimidating!) as well as the fact that in my mind, a comic store is a male-centric venue. I’m aware that this may not be true everywhere, but I’ll admit it is how I’ve always perceived comic book stores. When I heard about ladies night, I was thrilled. I felt it would be an event I would be comfortable attending and would be be a good place to gain introductory knowledge and begin to explore comic books. I doubt I would have mustered up the courage to pop into strange adventures had I not heard of ladies night. I appreciate that a business is going to lengths to make their cliental feel comfortable.
” I appreciate that a business is going to lengths to make their cliental feel comfortable”
As do I. I cannot however get past the point it is at the exposé of others.
Small, insignicant or whatever in the grand scheme as some here claim, it does deny entry to a gender, Hosting a special thing for one gender.
At the end of this event, you are still where you started. A women that needs to either wait 6 months for the next event to buy more comics, or subject yourself, bite the bullet and venture back into that regular hours den of maleness.
Nothing has really been gained. Nothing has been changed. The issues that justify a Ladies Night remain, causing yet the need for even more exclusionary events.
If I thought for a second that a Ladies night event, or even one every few months would solve this issue, I might hold my nose and swallow that equalitarianism tick I have, for the good of it. However such events don’t fix anything. They just continue to feed the problem.
Hey look, to get us women into comics and comfortable in comics, we need to have some private event for us!
“yea us, we’ve made such strides!”
But both of her issues have a chance of being addressed at a Ladies night. Her lack of knowledge of comic books and her perceived notion that a comic book store is a male dominated area. Going to a Ladies Night gives her the oppertunity to explore the store and also see that there are alot of women out there who also enjoy comics and that she is not alone in this. In addition she will be able to see how the staff treat female comic fans. This allows women to feel more comfortable going back to the store during regular hours.
No it does not. She has learnt what the store is like when staffed by women, and only women in the store. There is no guarantee that will be the case should she visit during regular hours. Most likely it won’t be. So she will still have to deal with the issue of male staff and male customers.
In some ways I could argue it could make things worse. I know it would for me. Say I go to Ladies Night, find some comics I wants get all hyped up, and brave that regular hours trip back to the store When I get there, it’s not at all the same. I time it bad and there isn’t a women in the store. Like it or not immediately my preconceived views return, they would for anyone.
Remember it isn’t the real treatment or how comic stores are, but the perceived view that is the problem in most cases at keep women away. Women don’t go because they perceive it is a male dominated domain. Going to a Ladies Night, and then being thrust back into that perceived den, didn’t fix any perceptions. Perceptions that had stopped me from going.
I know exactly what you will reply. But strange isn’t like that. Well of course it isn’t, but again it is about perception. Strange has many women on staff, the person will always see a women working, well maybe. This issue isn’t so much about strange, Their involvement is hosting the exclusionary event, the event isn’t fair is the issue, and that is transferable to any business that would do similar as I listed well above.
The only way someone who is uncomfortable about doing something, becomes comfortable, is if they do it under regular expected conditions. Otherwise it is just a fantasy waiting to come crashing down,
Strange has many female customers, I’ve more than enough confidence in them, that they can come up with ways to get even more women involved, and do it without special exclusionary events. That would make them even more special than they are, after all, mot of those female customers are from regular shoppers and not fed in by the Ladies Night only pipeline. So they’ve shown they can do it correctly already. Since they have done it by inclusion for the most part, why step backwards? Strange is better than that. They’ve shown us for well over a decade they are. Such a shame really they feel the need to go this route.
I guess no matter what anyone else has to say or feels that you will not change your mind. So lets agree to disagree. You can continue to think that a Ladies Night is a terrible horrible thing, and I will continue to think that it is an amazing event that allows women a chance to discover the joys of comics and to realize that there are alot of female comic fans, as well as female writers and artists working in the industry.
So Kelly, does that mean you would be okay with totes having African-American nights, or Christian nights? I don’t mean SA, I mean any store, let’s look at the broad issue, rather than specifics.
What about the movie theatre that has special midnight show of Star Wars, they don’t play any other movies during that time despite being setup for it. Star Wars fans are getting special treatment! Really, who cares. Yes, I’d love to go watch something else at that time, but do I feel discriminated against? No.
But to answer your question.
In short, yes
If I ran a pagan store and wanted to have a Christian night to allow them a chance to see for themselves what the store has to offer (and what we don’t offer), as well as to promote a better understanding between different religions, well, why not? I think this would be a great event as it would help dispell misconceptions, show case products that are for all religions, and make them feel welcome to come back anytime.
Ladies night at Stange is actually about inclusion. Yes I know it’s odd to think of an exclusive event to be about inclusion but that is the goal of the event. To make women feel welcome back at any time and show them that it is no longer an exclusively male dominated area.
I really find that attitude approach and enlightenment (or lack thereof) shocking for a Canadian in 2012. It’s certainly not the type of country I want to live in,
Mads, I understand what you are trying to say but I think that what strange adventures is trying to do with ladies night is a little bit different……..lets say there is a women’s group that has a flea market & strange adventures brings all of their shop to the flea market to bring comic books to a group that may not have been exposed to them. Well I feel that ladies night is more about bringing the comix to the women than the women to strange adventures. Make us fans of the comix in an environment that we are comfortable in & then let us decide to come back………even if we decide that it is more comfortable to go to chapters the over all industry is still stronger for that! 🙂
The part about only allowing women is I think that not only does it make it more comfortable but the very fact that it is ladies night would be more likely to attract the guys that make it uncomfortable……..& I know that most of them are probably very nice but I have been in strange adventures before & there is a reason for some of the stereo types………sorry guys! & lets face it, it does not take long for the store to fill up & if there is no room for the ladies at ladies night then everyone lose! 😉
There is a huge difference though between the two.
One is a group of people on their own setting up an event at a location and inviting Strange Adventures to hawk their wares at the event. Maybe at a hotel suite, a meeting hall, on campus somewhere, etc. the onus falls on the group to organize, invite and work out details. It also falls on the organizing group should anyone have issues over gender exclusion. Much like a church group having a bowling night/event for the church members.
This isn’t that though, this is a business closing its’ doors to a specific gender and catering to one gender.
There’s a huge difference between the two, and where the blame for hosting exclusionary activities falls.
I’d be making the same stand on any business that is open normally to the broad public, that closes its doors to cater a special event to any of the categories covered by the charter ie nationality, religion et el.
On a side note, we have all discussed about how women feel uncomfortable and thus don’t shop at comic book stores because of the perceived stereotypes. Is that limited to only women? Can’t males possibly feel intimidated and uncomfortable around such? Or because they are males, and males are the culprits, they don’t count? Granted the number of males feeling such is probably small that would just not shop at a comic store because of the atmosphere women hate. So we just ignore them? They are males, they just need to suck it up because of their gender?
The point being, women might fill 98% of that, but they aren’t the only ones. What do we do for those males of the 2%?
” I’d be making the same stand on any business that is open normally to the broad public, that closes its doors to cater a special event to any of the categories covered by the charter ie nationality, religion et el.”
I would just like to point out that Strange is not closing it doors to Carter to a group, but rather opening at a special time to hold a special event.
Theatres and books store routinely hold special events for particular group of fans over others, and I don’t feel like i’m being discriminated against by the theatre just because they are just showing that big summer blockbuster at midnight but nothing else.
“I would just like to point out that Strange is not closing it doors to Carter to a group, but rather opening at a special time to hold a special event.”
I’m a bit confused by that part myself. No longer being a shopper at Strange because of events like Ladies Night, my money speaks for my values (i am hoping they change so i may shop there again) I do not know their regular hours. Mostly it has been talk it is after hours, but one post above mentions they are closing early. Regardless, it makes no difference in my case and why I have an issue
“Theatres and books store routinely hold special events for particular group of fans over others, and I don’t feel like i’m being discriminated against by the theatre just because they are just showing that big summer blockbuster at midnight but nothing else.”
The book store or theatre didn’t refuse you entry to those things based on your gender, nationality, religion… They are not the same thing at all, attempts to even try and make them so, are very much disingenuous. From what you have posted, I know you know the difference.
I do know the difference between what is discrimination and what is not. I’m pretty sure that’s why we are in disagreement.
You see discrimination, I see an event designed to promote inclusion, yes by holding an exclusive event but the goal of the event is to welcome more women in to a place that many women view as a male oriented place. The event allows them to see that there is an increasing number of female readers (and yes, the increase is in part to due to events like this)
But I’ve determined that you are not willing to listen to other arguments and are most likely a troll. Claiming that at innocent event like Ladies Night is discriminatory is silly. And really I have better things to do than attempt to change your mind when you are unwilling to see the good of this event.
I won’t be back here as I have other fun things to do, like getting ready for Ladies Night.
I have read every post and considered every point. I have said several times I see the reading behind wanting more women in comics and support that. I only disagree with how.
There was a time when blacks sat on the back of the bus, that was acceptable at the time in society, then we grew up as a society. We are still growing, and have a ways to go yet. Just because something isn’t acceptable doesn’t make it right. Just because others do something doesn’t make it right,
I haven’t argued at all on discrimination, but on equality. I don’t know enough about the specific Laws on discrimination to do so. I do know however that like any laws, there is a difference between the intent of the law, and what lawyers and politicians have done with the law.
I believe in the spirit of the charter of rights,, and under such, maybe not by law, but certainly by ethics, excluding for any reason is in violation of the intent of instilling equal rights.
Your argument is solely based on the fact that sometimes we need to violate others to get where we need. I find that thought sickening. It certainly isn’t very ethical.
strange adventures normally closes @ 8 on wednesday but they are closing @ 7 for ladies night………..so you would be okay with the event if they waited 1 more hour!!!!!!!!!!??????? `:S
No Kara, I specifically said when the event is, is of no issue to me. During or after hours is both wrong.
You are right……..I forgot about the last line of your argument. I just find this to be such a pitiful argument about 2 hours when the owner of a comic book store bans HIMSELF from the store just so a less represented section of his clientele can have a PRIVATE, INVITATION ONLY PARTY. Obviously the canadian charter of rights & freedoms that was put in place to guarantee that ‘2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.’
to the extent that ’15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.’
except that ‘(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.’
clearly implies that any canadian shall have the right to shop for action figures any time of the day anywhere he or she wishes to!
I think that I will stop eating in restaurants because as a nudist it is my right to eat with out shoes or a shirt! 9,9
Let’s get one thing straight. This is NOT an invitation only event. This is NOT a special interest group event.
This is an open event for ALL women, widely publicized and promoted, open to EVERY woman. Nothing PRIVATE about it.
Yes Tim, I’m still here, I’m just busy with this issue from many angles. Unfortunately as we all know the pace of society, things don’t always move as fast as they need to due to procedures that need to proceed at their own pace.
It’s nice to know that while I seem to have the minority view, that I am not alone, to varying degrees. That is heartening. With small steps come change.
There is a whole bunch of interesting reading on this issue. Most of it though is US based :(. There has been very little action/movement on these issues in Camada, and even harder to find information when cases/rulings have been made.
Much of the US stuff is very interesting though. Most of it is related to the above mentioned examples by others on ladies night at bars, and women only gyms. While neither has had US constitution challenges, they both have had several runins with stat civil rights measures, several states have made rulings that ladies only Night at bars is wrong and have stopped them. I believe 8 states when challenged on Women only gyms and lost, made laws that specifically allowed them and worked around/over the civil rights laws, California has several times had the state agency for civil rights charge and win against women not gyms, in effect stopping them from existing, or if they do start, with being fined and stopped from continuing the practice.
My point is that if you want something to happen, even if deemed discriminatory, or at the very least inequal, one can usually come up with some way,, reason or law to justify the action. of course, that rarely makes it right.
I just wanted to point out that people’s so called rock solid examples of why it is okay to have a Ladies Only Night, perhaps have been through the ringer in other jurisdictions. Only a matter of time for here and the rest of Canada.
Which sadly I can see many here using the perfect excuse of well, we might as well do until we can’t.
Tim,
I have not stated if I am male or female, as I feel that is not of importance to if something is discriminatory or not. I believe the issue should be argued on facts, rather than a he said / she said view.
Or perhaps I’m transgendered and not sure where I fit in to attend or not.
There are many levels to barring gender from a place of business.
Well, it’s a special event to which women are invited. Not necessarily private, but certainly an extracurricular event with specific parameters.
What are you busy with, J? It seems from any legal standpoint there are no real grounds to do anything.
I find it super interesting that you haven’t said if you’re male or female, because I think it highlights our different viewpoints. You seem very black and white about things, like it’s flat out wrong no matter what, and your own personal context and the context of the event itself are irrelevant. While I’m rather fond of gray, and I’m all about the context, both in terms of why we think what we think and for the event itself. I think, in context, this event isn’t discriminatory in the slightest (especially since no one seems to feel discriminated against…), though really even black and white in terms of the law it’s still above board. But yeah, you seem to not care about context one bit.
If you’re transgendered, I suppose it might depend on if you self-identify as one gender or the other. If you don’t, I’m sure they’d let you in… Strange Adventures is super good about LGBT things.
Many people in this discussion have brought up logical holes in your argument, which you ignore, simply re-stating your personal opinion, instead of engaging in a serious debate.
It has been pointed out that there are many many other examples of gender-specific events and organizations around Halifax. Why are you not trying to get a membership at a ladies-only gym, or get free drinks at a ladies’ night at a nightclub? These are far more clear examples of the kind of ‘discrimination’ you are railing against.
I would be shocked if any authority would take your ‘complaint’ seriously. No one in the media is going to take up your cause of stopping women from getting together at a comic shop without men around. The authorities have real problems to deal with, people actually suffering harm from discrimination.
Your righteous indignation over this is an affront to actual victims of discrimination.
“These are far more clear examples of the kind of ‘discrimination’ you are railing against.”
So J, or anyone fighting against something, has to start at the most serious and work their way down? I didn’t realize that’s how we operated here in Canada. I thought everything was treated the same. I’m pretty sure that if someone feels discriminated against, they either feel they were or they weren’t. I hardly think they felt a little bit discriminated against. Is that like almost pregnant? Is that like telling someone that well, your severity level of sexual assault was a 2 out of 10 , we are going to work on the more severe cases.
Yea, I agree with you on the grand scheme of things, this is minor, but so what? If someone has an issue with it, and feels its wrong, then it’s wrong to them. Many laws and practices over the years have changed on even more minor contentions.
The thing I find the most disturbing is the attitude of well if it does more good than harm, what’s the deal. That line of thinking and acceptance is so very scary with its implications on any issue of equality and rights. The idea of ‘for the greater good’, is wow, I don’t know a word to use here. It certainly has been an excuse used by people for millennia to justify any number of questionable things, like Hiroshima.
Mads: it does _zero_ harm. You have yet to demonstrate any way this event does any harm to anyone.
And yes, Christian groups meet all the time, and they wouldn’t appreciate atheists crashing their get togethers.
People are free to meet in whatever sort of groups they like, for whatever reason. The only limiting factor is harm, as is the case with criminal groups or hate groups.
You don’t like the event, that is your prerogative but don’t push your opinions on other people and try and dress it up as some sort of social justice initiative.
I don’t think anyone, even J, has an issue with the intent of the event. Get more women into comics and comic stores. Good goal. Commendable.
Let’s change though how we do it. Let’s not be exclusionary and debny others to do it. There’s so many things that can be done that are inclusionary, there’s no need for exclusionary events.
All it requires is a change in attitude. How can we accomplish the same thing without banning males. Approach t froma different angle. Say we will do this without banning males, so how are we going to do it. Nobody is saying don’t get more women into comics,
For example, without more than 5 minutes thought, that I am sure the fine folks at Strange, and the women in favour of Ladies Night can do a much better job of. Strange stays open later another night a week for 2 hours. Promote it as Ladies welcome, ladies staff members on. As you are open 2 extra hours, this will not hurt any male hours. Males of course are allowed in the store at the same time and allowed everything women are. T is a time though when ladies who are uncomfortable know that lady star will be on. Flesh out the evening by having a team of lady embassy does. Women who will be there to help out and guide. Volunteers from a Halifax ladies comic club. This gives ladies some comfort in gong not a comic store, and gets everyone to cooperate and mature together. Males of course, like always at Strange, are expected to be on their best behaviour.
Strange could also set up a Comic-gal forum on their site. A place for women uncomfortable going alone to make connections with lady ambassadors who will guide them through their shopping experience, not only on the extra night open, but any time during regular hours they can arrange.
Once a month, or every couple months, have an outing for customers, that promotes even further interaction, at places that are not traditionally male or female dominated.
Outreach programs to ladies groups where a staff member goes and educates them on what comic stores are really like, with a tour of the tore included during regular hours.
As I said, needs some work as done off the top of the head, but all doable and all inclusionary. so many other things. An infinite amount if one just inks in the right frame of mind, and says we will accomplish this and we won’t do X to get there.
I really need to find out how to disable auto word:(
mads, while I disagree with you I would like to thank you for a reasoned, thoughtful argument. I see the point that you are trying to make but I do not think that a problem can not be ‘minor’. Discrimination is about 1 group showing a hatred toward another on some level. The point of ladies night is in the hope that 1 group will come back later to mingle with the other group. There is no malicious intent on any level. For that reason, mads, as I said your arguments have been reasonable, but for j to suggest that her or his rights are in violation is just making a mockery of real human rights violations! 😡
Thanks Kara, I try very hard, and usually not with success, to look at the intended and moral meaning of a word, rather than some legal definition.
There is often a huge difference between the two:)
Personally, i cant wait for ladies night and will be helping out at the event as well as making a ton of cookies! Im glad to see so much support for this event, it should be an awesome evening with a ton of awesome people!
I do like the idea of having a ladies in comics group here in town though, it would be fun to get something together 🙂
Mads, you’ve made a lot of interesting points, and stated them well. I’m curious about one of the ideas you suggest, however.
You propose that instead of a ‘Ladies (only) Night’, SA should host a ‘Ladies Welcome’ night, presumably with the same benefits as ‘Ladies Night’. Due to the nature of normal comic shop clientele, it seems likely to me that any such ‘Ladies Welcome’ night would be attended by a vast majority of men. I live far away from SA and I’ve never been there myself, but I imagine that their space is not infinite. If, for every female that showed up to the event, eight or nine men showed up, it seems like it would defeat the purpose of the event, ie giving women a chance to come to SA and learn about comics in an environment where they feel welcome and comfortable. In fact, if a great many men came to the store (and I suspect many would, if they knew female comics fans might be there and free cupcakes were on offer), SA staff might well end up having to turn away women from the door, telling them that the party was full, which would exclude comic-curious women from the very event that was trying to attract them to the medium in the first place! Not only that, but I suspect many women would avoid attending such an event, especially if they’re the kind of women who feel uncomfortable going to comic shops because they feel threatened or insecure in situations with many male comics fans.
How would you handle the situation if this turned out to be the case? If eight or nine men arrived for every female who showed up on ‘Ladies Welcome’ night, leading to a situation where the vast majority of customers were male? How would you encourage women who feel threatened or uncomfortable in large groups dominated by men, or women who normally avoid comic shops, to attend?
As I said I didn’t have every wrinkle worked out in the 5 mins of thought:)
I’m up to a challenge though so here goes. I suppose I was thinking that it not being an event per se, but say every thurs night Strange stayed open 2 extra hours. With it being a weekly thing, the concept was that it not have an event atmosphere but a regular business atmosphere, thus potentially avoiding such. Will that work? Shrug.
The concept is that while males will be in the store, a woman, or a group of them knows that if they come in at that time, there will be women staff on, and some chummy women customers about to guide them through their shopping experience. Also, that should help keep any of those pesky males at bay 🙂
The idea like the ladies night would be to get the women comfortable in the store and ween them off needing to go during that time. Which really is the goal of ladies night I gather. A couple ladies nights a year, in the long run doesn’t exactly make a sustainable business concept, if they don’t become semi regular shoppers at some point. Again, helping to cut down on that crowded potential issue once they are not coming in just Thursday nights.
There’s also always the hope that with more women about, those pesky males might actually get used to them about, making them less pesky. Familiarity kills alienness after all,
Specifically on the question should males flock in because of it. Whap em upside the head:). More seriously, I would assume Strange like most businesses has some sort of plan, even if not official, of how to deal with overcrowded ness, and loiterers. I’d guess about the same way they’d deal with hangers around during any busy time. FCBD isn’t in the store for the past few years, but it was in the past, and they must of had a way to deal with someone in the crowds that wanted to just hang for 2 hours. Remember this idea is supposed to be a regular shopping time, which means customer flow – in, browse, potentially/hopefully purchase and leave, males coming in, lounging around every Thursday for 2 hours…. Time for a chat with the customers I’d say. Politely of course reminding them that it is a business, No need to even bring up the women present and thus you are hanging around part, thus avoiding potential conflict.
It doesn’t need to Be an extra night, it could be anytime, I just thought though, that a new time might be a bit better to get it going, than trying to get it working on a Saturday, or even a Wednesday, the night they are open. Those are already busy times as is.
Also for clarity. I speak of pesky males in the broad term -the perceived reason of why women are uncomfortqble. I never had any issue with any males at Strange when I was going.
I can’t believe this kept going for so long. A private company has the right to put define any post-hours event (within the law of course, so no man-hunting or getting horses drunk) however they feel, with or without their clientele.
Any argument made otherwise that does not address business policy is telling more about the poster than anything else.
You make it sound much simpler than it is. The key of your statement is ‘within the law’, which in actuality is very broad and covers many many things.
All J has to do is show that the complaint falls within discrimination. Maybe that can’t be done. Maybe a good lawyer, will hit on the right hook and show it does. Stranger things have happened when it comes to laws, lawyers courts and tribunals. The onus is on J to prove it though.
There was a case of a male in BC I found where he took a women’s only gym to the BC human rights commission ( or whatever the exact name is for it). While the male failed on all three points to show why it was discrimination, no rulng was made that such gyms are okay or not, and the male was instructed he could appeal should he feel that he could fulfill the commissions requirements to meet discrimination.
Really, there just hasn’t been a serious test case ( the BC male was just so out of his league on the intricacies of the issue) on the issue in Canada.
Sooner or later, one will come. They always do. Then we see how things shake out. Hit the reset button and start all over again, either trying to overturn ladies only nights./gyms or if the court case goes against allowing uh, in trying to re-establish them. Thus is the wheel of law.
It’s hardly a simple matter, while I’ve typed exhaustively on my views, I’m hardly an expert, nor do I believe anyone here is anywhere near close to a Canadian rights expert. So anything all of us say is just our thoughts ona very complicated issue. As all rights issues are.
All I know is that myself and my friends, all of is women late20s+ no linger shop at Strange because of Ladies Night. Women fought for 40 years for equal rights, the least we can do is support the ideal of equality in respect of our foremothers. We are all of course willing to change the policy on shopping there, when the inequality is removed. This isn’t a bitter thing, or a vendetta thing, just what we feel is right and practicing what we try and instill in others.
“All J has to do is show that the complaint falls within discrimination. Maybe that can’t be done.”
Correct. It can’t be done. Discrimination laws were never meant for this. No lawyer would bother with this so called case, because it’s frivolous.
“Women fought for 40 years for equal rights”
Correct again! And they did that by direct action, they did things that their opponents thought to be unfair. One of the things they did was they held women-only meetings.
“So anything all of us say is just our thoughts ona very complicated issue. As all rights issues are.”
Actually no, many of us in this discussion are bringing up logical, historical and ethical arguments. _You_ are just saying your thoughts, and trying to give them the same weight as actual reasoned arguments.
If you don’t feel like you understand this ‘complicated issue’ then please do some more research on the subject. Many of us understand this issue very well.
“Correct. It can’t be done. Discrimination laws were never meant for this. No lawyer would bother with this so called case, because it’s frivolous”
There isn’t a thing that can never be done.
Frivolous in your opinion.
Remember, there’s been already one challenge (the BC gym one), and the male wasn’t sent away his claims were frivolous. There will be more. It’s how we work, even if the attempts are frivolous.
Tell somebody they can’t do something, they’ll find a way. Human nature.
Mads: I was quoting _you_! You said ‘Maybe it can’t be done.’ so now you are arguing with yourself.
The frivolity of this so called case is not a matter of opinion. Frivolous is a word with a meaning: Not having any serious purpose or value: “rules to stop frivolous lawsuits”
Shops can be open or closed or hold whatever kind of event they want, you are the one that wants to step in and stop it. The burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate a reason for this event to not go ahead. For authorities to intervene, they need a serious purpose.
There is no serious reason. I understand you feel strongly about this, but that does not make you right.
Ignoring sexism will not make it go away. There is a continuing need for action to push back. Pretending that women and men are treated equally in this society is irresponsible and dangerous. If we relax our guards, then all the progress women have made over the last hundred years will be gone.
Women do not have equal rights. Women are marginalised. You can talk about equality all you like but it’s not something that just happens. Women positive events and Women spaces are important parts of the feminist movement, which is an important part of gaining equality.
This event is not ‘discrimination’ against men. They are a privileged majority, especially in this male dominated field, whether they/you like it or not.
If, for example, a man was marginalised or prejudiced while working or trying to gain employment in a women dominated field in which men are a minority, such as child care or nursing, then yes, that is discrimination.
You’re fighting the wrong battle here and doing equality harm, not good.
“This event is not ‘discrimination’ against men. They are a privileged majority, especially in this male dominated field, whether they/you like it or not.”
There are two ways to obtain equality. You can remove, using your example, privileges from one group until both are equal. The other is to take away no privileges from the group that has them and award the privileges needed to the group that doesn’t to make them equal.
I prefer the latter. I think it makes a much better society. There isn’t a reason why women can’t become equal in comics, and it can be done without ever telling a male, no. It just takes the right determination to accomplish. Because we can accomplish anything we want with the right drive.
Same argument, still wrong.
Mads, you say: “There are two ways to obtain equality.” What are you basing that statement on? What is your source for this ‘fact’? It seems like it is just your own theory, untested and unproven.
Take a second and just do a smidgen of research, please. You are sitting at a computer, yes? Read the Wiki articles on MLK, Susan B Anthony, Gandhi, Rosa Parks… learn about what these people went though, learn what they thought about equality and how it is obtained. They took privileges away from their opponents. They really did, and it was the right thing to do.
You are misguided on this matter. I ask you to please inform yourself and rethink your position.
Crack walker you don’t need to be a jerk to me. Disagree all you want, but can the ‘tude.
Sorry Mads, but I don’t have ‘tude’ and I’m not being a jerk.
I’m not telling you that you have to go to Ladies Night if you don’t want to. I’m not pushing my ideas on you.
You are trying to push your ideas on other people.
That’s the thing. It doesn’t fall within discrimination. It’s perfectly fine except in his mind.
Mads, you’re clearly looking for attention and little else. Go find it some other way rather than complaining that ladies get a night to themselves. You sound pathetic.
“Mads, you’re clearly looking for attention and little else. Go find it some other way rather than complaining that ladies get a night to themselves. You sound pathetic.”
Yea sure whatever.
Clearly I’ve only railed against the event as evil, and haven’t spent a minute of thought on the issue, or even taken time to suggest other ways it can be done.
🙂
We all thank you for your suggestions, but they are just that, and poorly thought out ones at that. What makes you think you know more than a successful business owner, who has been growing his company steadily for 20 years?
Feminist issues aside, Ladies’ Night is an effort for the store to attract more customers. A wider and more diverse customer base is just good business sense.
Crackwalker said
“We all thank you for your suggestions, but they are just that, and poorly thought out ones at that. What makes you think you know more than a successful business owner, who has been growing his company steadily for 20 years?”
Condescend much?
Just because someone is successful doesn’t mean that the way they did something to get successful is the only way to have accomplished the goal, nor even the best or fairest way.
All I’ve argued for as a woman is to be treated as an equal at the store, with no special privileges or advantages – that anything available to one customer is available to another under the same circumstances and conditions.
Treating me otherwise, means I am not equal. Needing a special night for ladies, certainly doesn’t make me feel like an equal and that the store feels I need special treatment so that I will equal, I also don’t need to be celebrated that I am a woman and different, I already know I am. That as well doesn’t make me an equal.
As a woman, you are not equal in this society, no matter what you know about yourself. This is not my opinion. This is fact. From “http://www.gpiatlantic.org/publications/abstracts/incdist-ab.htm”
The Gender Gap: More Women Live in Poverty
Despite relative educational parity, Nova Scotian women earn only 80% of the hourly wages of men. Even with identical education, field of study, employment status, work experience, job tenure, age, job duties, industry and occupation, female hourly wages are still 11% lower than equivalent male wages. Full-year full-time working women in Nova Scotia earn 70% of male wages, with 21% of these women earning less than $15,000 a year ($8 per hour or less) and 38% earning less than $20,000 a year ($10 per hour or less).
One in six Nova Scotian women lives below Statistics Canada’s low-income cut-off, a low income rate that is 50% higher than that for men (by far the widest low-income gender gap in the country) and 26% above the national average for women. The female poverty rate in Nova Scotia is the highest in Atlantic Canada and the second highest in the country after Quebec. Single mothers and unattached elderly women have the highest poverty rates, with 70% of Nova Scotian single mothers living below the low-income cut-off.
Nearly half the province’s 40,000 poor children live in single parent families, and a child living with a single mother is nearly four times as likely to be poor as a child living with both parents. Overall, nearly one in five Nova Scotian children under 18 live in poverty, the fourth highest rate in the country after Newfoundland, Quebec and Manitoba, and an improvement over 1997 when Nova Scotia had the highest rate of child poverty in the country.
——————–
This is real harm. This is not a matter of opinion. This is what informed people mean when they use words like ‘discrimination’. You are using it in a frivolous way, diluting its meaning, and disrespecting the real issues that we face as a society.
I’m sorry that you feel like I am condescending. I did not intend to hurt your feelings, but this is an issue that I will not mince words about. About this issue, you are just wrong.
“As a woman, you are not equal in this society, no matter what you know about yourself. This is not my opinion”
As if I didn’t know that. That of course isn’t what I have been saying, but clearly what you want me to be saying. Same thing as you keep insisting I’m arguing discrimination, when in fact I have been very explicit in insisting my argument is on equality, and not discrimination. Because the two are not the same. Not even close.
I have been saying that if a store wants me, as a woman to be equal and welcome in the industry, then I need to be treated equal. Not with specials, to make me become equal. But by insisting everything be done equally to all.
It is actually more insulting to be singled out and treated special because us women have been left out and feel uncomfortable in the comic world. Very much so more insulting than just beng left out.
Treat me the same. Have the same rules for me. Nothing more, nothing less. That is what empowers me.
Using your example on women making less, which does happen. There are three ways to fix the issue,
1- pay men less
2- pay a bonus to women
3-pay women what the men make,
Only the third point is an equality situation. The third point addresses the issue, fixes the issue, and does it without taking anything away from the males who perpetrated the issue.
All of them, solve the issue, the last #3 is the only real solution. Ladies night is pretty much the exact same situation, except it is using method 2 to accomplish the task. Not quite so good. Find a method 3 that never denies e males and then you have equality, which is what everyone should be trying to accomplish in the end.
But since you insist on trying to be rude, say I have no idea at I am taking about, that I have no perspective, have no idea of my background, I’m done justifying myself to you. Everyone else here seems ro at least get what i am saying, agrreing is not a requirement in a mature discussion, but inderstanding does and i feel everyone else has at least understood where i am conming from. You want to be polite and discuss the issue as a nature adult, just let me know, otherwise PLONK.
Everyone else, I want to thank you for a good polite mature discussion. Thank you. Believe it or not, enjoy your ladies night, and I look forward to the day such is not needed, hopefully we can accomplish that together on some other agreed upon event., as ladies night is but a small step on th e road.
Correct, we have no idea about each others’ background. All we have to go on is what each of us has said here in this discussion. And the things you are saying put you on the side of a bunch of self-entitled idiots that want to go protest outside a comic shop, because they feel they are being victimized.
You say that no special rules or events are necessary for gender equality to come about in our society. That’s just ignoring the issue and hoping everyone else will play along with you.
Until we have achieved gender equality, we need to have special rules and special events, because he playing field is not level yet. If we don’t fight to protect the progress that we’ve made, there are plenty of Rick Santorums and Vic Toews out there, ready to swoop in and lock women back in the kitchen.
Please somebody, anybody, tell me that I haven’t said or implied a thing that Crackwalker claims. I think I need that for my sanity.
Well, you’ve said a lot of things 🙂 This comments section has really blown up, and it’s all quite fascinating.
As for Crackwalker’s last post, the implication is that you’re on the side of “self-entitled idiots” who want to protest. On the one hand, you very kindly said you hope everyone has a lovely time at Ladies Night, which is hardly protester-like. On the other hand, you’ve said you’re not shopping at Strange Adventures anymore because of events like Ladies night, which is pretty much a protest. So let’s call that bit a wash.
However, Crackwalker says: “You say that no special rules or events are necessary for gender equality to come about in our society” and I don’t think that’s accurate. You’ve suggested several special events of a less-exclusive nature, and you seem generally aware that gender inequality isn’t just going to fix itself. So I think Crackwalker is inaccurate there.
There’s been a lot of hyperbole on both sides of the debate, but I think everyone’s been decently well-mannered so far, which I’m glad to see. I know that gender inequality is a highly charged issue and that discussions can get heated and frustrating. Much as I disagree with your comments, Mads, I certainly appreciate them and how you’ve presented them.
With respect, this discussion was already hyperbolic when I entered it, thanks to J’s nonsensical assertions that Ladies Night violated his human rights. This is a contemptible position, and his stated intent to ‘alert the authorities and the media’ is ridiculous.
Mads came into this discussion as a defender of J’s point-of-view, and however well-intentioned she may be on a personal level, she is inadvertently lending a veneer of legitimacy to his moronic argument.
A friend of mine told me today that she was worried there would be some sort of protesters at SA on Ladies Night. (She’s going anyways) This is a very saddening aspect of J’s manufactured controversy.
I have personally found a lot of what Mad’s has said contradictory, imprudent and really quite offensive. I can understand on what ground she makes her arguments, I certainly don’t appreciate them.
I’m sure the night will be amazing nonetheless.
“On the other hand, you’ve said you’re not shopping at Strange Adventures anymore because of events like Ladies night, which is pretty much a protest. So let’s call that bit a wash.”
I suppose it is a protest in a way, but let’s have some perspective on it. Myself going into a store, hearing of something the store is doing that I disagree with, telling the staff member of my disagreement, so the store knows why I am no longer coming back, and then leaving. Is hardly a protest, certainly not a public one. Not even making the issue public for years until this blog is hardly s protest as Crackwalker claims.m Certainly not an impertinent entitleist, protesting outside the store as a victimized person as Crackwalker claims. My level of protest is no different than any one of us has done when unhappy with the service of a business, and we hardly call leaving bell to go to rogers over policies we don’t like a “protest”
I also believe that while I haven’t been back, I have hardly told others to not go, and that they are wrong for going. I have suggested other ways for the same goals to be accomplished,mthat I believe can be accomplished, or I wouldn’t have bothered spending hours now total on this blog coming up with ideas.
I haven’t hampered empowerment or been contradictory on the issue as claimed either. Every one of my posts and ideas is strong women empowerment, supported by the backdrop of, women belong in the store during regular hours, and If we want that we have to take that by going in and becoming comfortable during regular hours and making the store make it a comfortable environment.
That’s empowerment, That’s not setting back any movements as claimed by Crackwalker and bids.
I’ve in no way ever said Women should just roll over and play dead and be victimized, or poor me. I’ve in fact insisted the opposite. We go in under regular circumstances and take what is ours, in this case our right to be in a comic store during regular hours.
The only point we really disagree on is that Crackwalker claims we need our hands held to accomplish that, by having special events to entice and educate us to which I say garbage. I don’t heed my hand held to know what to do to get equal rights, nor do I appreciate people thinking I need my hand held or special events in my homour, and I can’t do it without special consideration to enable me. Some party doesn’t enable me where I go to some women only event.
I believe that’s the entitlement Crackwalker accuses me of.
“we’ve been trod on for years, we’ve been kept out of comics, so we’ll by Hera show them and have our own thing! They are so privileged we deserve this! Nobly by this do we remove their privilege!”
Yea, I’d say the ladies night pretty much covers the entitlement generation approach to how to get equality probably causing every bra burner to roll over in their graves.
Sorry to get snippy, but Crackwalker is out of line and certainly accuses me of things I never said.
Mads: You mention me a lot in your rant there, attributing a lot of opinions to me that I never expressed in this discussion.
To be clear: I’m not accusing you of anything except standing with J, and trying to push your vision of empowerment on other people.
My position is this: Let the ladies do what they want. If you don’t want to go, that’s your choice.
Won’t comment… Must not comment… No matter what I’m continued to be accused of.. Must not… Let me have the last word… Outta here
That’s let THEM have the last word… As in Crackwalker. Go ahead continue to accuse me all you want of stuff I never did,
Okay Mads, so we agree that J is wrong about his ‘violated human rights’, and women have every right to meet without men around as it can be a very empowering experience.
I wasn’t coming back until a friend told me of the les and words you put in my mouth crackwalker.
I never said that, and you $#%# know it.
You know $$#%@# well that I have said over and over I don’t think it is discrimination per se, but I feel it is not a way a business should treat genders with equality.
I’ve said that 20+ times, you really are just being a $#@$#% about it.
Now go the $%%# back to the crack you crawled out of.
I apologize to everyone else for losing my cool, but if even the owner of the blog will not stop people like crackwalker from making up and saying people said stuff when I clearly have not, then so there it is, I’ve lost my cool
Mads: Instead of getting mad and repeating that ‘you never said this’, why not simply clarify your position?
I got the impression that you felt that J was correct in his assertion that Ladies’ Night violated his human rights.
If this is not the case, just say so. You don’t have to try and make it personal.
Don’t worry Tim, I haven’t given up. Off to NB, where there’s 3 weeks this time to get a bit more organized and the message out and questions answered. Also means three more weeks to work with orgznizations that move at snail’s paces.
Never said I’d stop this in a day, because that’s just an unrealistic expectation. These things take time, .
It’ll get done, next year’s ladies night, or next, or the ladies night after that. Just a matter of the right info, the right actions taken, ending up in the right hands.
The key thing learnt this time? Nobody will do anything on the issue of discrimination until the actual purported event happens. Which means a male needing to try and get into a ladies night.
Which I admit makes sense, can’t have discrimination without the actual activity happening. No ruling can even be made until then as to the validity of the claim.
It seems that you did absolutely nothing in 2 weeks with the NS Ladies Night, so I doubt the folks in NB are terribly concerned you’ve got 3 whole weeks to get something going there 🙂
I hate to be a downer, but I don’t think you’re ever going to stop it, even if you have a male try to get in. Have you read up on the ladies gym case in BC? The gym is only for ladies ALL the time and the dude who filed the complaint against them got his case thrown out… there’s actually a wikipedia article on it, which is kind of fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopps_v._Just_Ladies_Fitness. Also, it leaves out the best part, that the dude had to pay $3000 for harassing people at the gym.
Anyway, you’ve got nothing. And Ladies Night in NS was a ROARING success… the place was packed and a good time was had by all. If anything, your opposition fired up a lot of people and might have made the event even more successful. Is that your real plan? Because if so, that’s crafty and I applaud you. Trying to make something more of it is only going to give the event publicity and make it even more successful, so by all means go for it!!
I am well aware of the BC gym case.
Course one should always believe everything in wikipedia…
Nevertheless, you gloss over the fact that the case failed because he failed to prove it was discrimination, not because they deemed it not discriminatory. They also clearly pointed out to the male that he can appeal to try and prove why it was discriminatory to him.
Of course ladies night was a roaring success. A party with free giveaways, why wouldn’t it be. Lot’s of things in life are a roaring success, even lots of discrimation acts throughout history have been a roaring success for those doing it. Screw those being discriminated against, it was a roaring success! That’s all that matters! Party on dudette!
Really? Because in pursuing this frivolous complaint you seem not to be. Or, at least not aware of precedent and how that works.
No, it was deemed not discrimatory. He failed to prove it was discrimation, and so they deemed it not discriminatory. Much like will happen with your supposed complaints 🙂 Of course everyone has the right to appeal, but that seemed to go nowhere for him.
It was a roaring success indeed, thanks in part to you. Cal and everyone at the shop must appreciate the outraged response that got it even more attention. Gail Simone was tweeting about it even. As always, keep up the good work.
OMG! The Shock! A female tweeting about a female only party! I’m stunned!
Dude, your being a jackass got Ladies Night a shout out from the most famous female superhero writer in the industry. That’s pretty fantastic 🙂
Yea a nice unbiased source. A woman given a shout out to a women’s party.
There’s a huge shocker.
Get me a leading civil rights expert saying it’s okay that SA has ladies nights, denying males entry, I might listen.
But a ftatboy drooling over the fact a women gave a shout out to a womens party, helpt to keep those stereotypes going, please.
I wasn’t saying that Gail Simone is an unbiased source concerning the event’s supposed discriminatory nature. I was saying that so far all you’ve accomplished is making the event even more well-known, popular, and successful, which is kind of hilarious and generally fantastic. So please, keep it up… you’re excellent publicity.
J you seem like you may be such a sad & lonely person………….*hugs!*
btw should you not be protesting that men are not allowed to wear dresses? that seems like the most progressive problem that would offend you! 9,9
Kara they aren’t? Missed that rule at the doors to stores. Last time I checked the only thing stopping males might be the nasty laughter that people would aim at them.
Tim, gee almost like I was a ringer…
J: Why wait for a year? There’s plenty of female-only institutions open year round. Ladies’ Gyms, Sports teams… maybe you should apply to be a Girl Guide leader. I bet they’d say ‘no thank you’ and you’d have your casus belli, then the legal actions could get underway.
Yet women can be scout leaders…
I am curious to find out what blog system you are utilizing?
I’m having some small security issues with my latest website and I’d like to find something more secure.
Do you have any suggestions?